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	<title>Comments on: (Dis)simulations</title>
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	<link>http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/</link>
	<description>Website and blog of Nick Harkaway, author of “The Gone-Away World”.</description>
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		<title>By: Foz Meadows</title>
		<link>http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/comment-page-1/#comment-97</link>
		<dc:creator>Foz Meadows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/#comment-97</guid>
		<description>Jeanne: Is it scary that I find that I feel complimented?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Nick: I agree completely. However, in both your scenario and mine, there must come a point at which the subject eventually wakes up. Presumably, if one were awake under anasthetic and watching one&#039;s flesh being mangled, there&#039;d be a certain amount of psychic peturbation; sort of like that Dhantu body-remove torture in Scott Westerfeld&#039;s Risen Empire, if you&#039;ve ever read that. Still, at very least, even if the subject was unconscious and awoke unaware of the damage that had been done to them and without pain afterwards, you still wouldn&#039;t call it surgery. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;....I should probably stop thinking about this now. Yes I should.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeanne: Is it scary that I find that I feel complimented?</p>
<p>Nick: I agree completely. However, in both your scenario and mine, there must come a point at which the subject eventually wakes up. Presumably, if one were awake under anasthetic and watching one&#8217;s flesh being mangled, there&#8217;d be a certain amount of psychic peturbation; sort of like that Dhantu body-remove torture in Scott Westerfeld&#8217;s Risen Empire, if you&#8217;ve ever read that. Still, at very least, even if the subject was unconscious and awoke unaware of the damage that had been done to them and without pain afterwards, you still wouldn&#8217;t call it surgery. </p>
<p>&#8230;.I should probably stop thinking about this now. Yes I should.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Harkaway</title>
		<link>http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/comment-page-1/#comment-96</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Harkaway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/#comment-96</guid>
		<description>Foz - online dictionaries think &#039;torture&#039; is:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;anguish of body or mind&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;extreme anguish of body or mind&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;any method by which pain is inflicted&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;etc.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So in your virtual session, the damage may not be real, but the pain is... that&#039;s how I ended up with my initial question: what if there was no pain, but there was damage. And to answer myself - the aim (or at least, the likely consequence) of what I outlined is to provoke &#039;anguish of mind&#039;. So that would be real torture, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Foz &#8211; online dictionaries think &#8216;torture&#8217; is:</p>
<p>&#8220;anguish of body or mind&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;extreme anguish of body or mind&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;any method by which pain is inflicted&#8221;</p>
<p>etc.</p>
<p>So in your virtual session, the damage may not be real, but the pain is&#8230; that&#8217;s how I ended up with my initial question: what if there was no pain, but there was damage. And to answer myself &#8211; the aim (or at least, the likely consequence) of what I outlined is to provoke &#8216;anguish of mind&#8217;. So that would be real torture, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeanne</title>
		<link>http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/comment-page-1/#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/#comment-95</guid>
		<description>Foz...Shudder!!!  Sounds like an idea for any 21st-century Orwell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Foz&#8230;Shudder!!!  Sounds like an idea for any 21st-century Orwell.</p>
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		<title>By: Foz Meadows</title>
		<link>http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/comment-page-1/#comment-92</link>
		<dc:creator>Foz Meadows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 04:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/#comment-92</guid>
		<description>&quot;Simulated drowning&quot; makes the whole thing sound like a question of virtual reality. Which is intriguing. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Say someone developed a perfect VR machine and plugged in a suspected terrorist without that person&#039;s knowledge. For days, weeks or hours, the suspect undergoes what they believe to be excruciating physical torture, when in fact it&#039;s all just skillful, pain-and-sensory simulated VR. Having subsequently divulged their information or, if innocent, made up enough to satisfy their captors, they are then unplugged, waking - disoriented and frightened - to find themselves whole and strapped to a table, their flesh undamaged.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Which begs the question: in this hypothetical instance, has the Geneva Convention actually been violated? Given the fact of psychological torture, one would think so, because the intent was the same as if actual torture had been employed, a sort of Orwellian descent in the limits of human endurance. Which would, by inference, suggest that simulated drowning, despite the name, cannot be differentiated from torture, the entire point of which is not to kill (or drown), but to extract information under threat of pain and the fear of more to come. How anyone can believe waterboarding doesn&#039;t fall into this category is beyond me; but if a VR torture chamber were invented, would anyone condone - or at least, contemplate - its use as a more &#039;moral&#039; alternative to conventional torture purely on the basis of lack of physical harm?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Simulated drowning&#8221; makes the whole thing sound like a question of virtual reality. Which is intriguing. </p>
<p>Say someone developed a perfect VR machine and plugged in a suspected terrorist without that person&#8217;s knowledge. For days, weeks or hours, the suspect undergoes what they believe to be excruciating physical torture, when in fact it&#8217;s all just skillful, pain-and-sensory simulated VR. Having subsequently divulged their information or, if innocent, made up enough to satisfy their captors, they are then unplugged, waking &#8211; disoriented and frightened &#8211; to find themselves whole and strapped to a table, their flesh undamaged.</p>
<p>Which begs the question: in this hypothetical instance, has the Geneva Convention actually been violated? Given the fact of psychological torture, one would think so, because the intent was the same as if actual torture had been employed, a sort of Orwellian descent in the limits of human endurance. Which would, by inference, suggest that simulated drowning, despite the name, cannot be differentiated from torture, the entire point of which is not to kill (or drown), but to extract information under threat of pain and the fear of more to come. How anyone can believe waterboarding doesn&#8217;t fall into this category is beyond me; but if a VR torture chamber were invented, would anyone condone &#8211; or at least, contemplate &#8211; its use as a more &#8216;moral&#8217; alternative to conventional torture purely on the basis of lack of physical harm?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Harkaway</title>
		<link>http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/comment-page-1/#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Harkaway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 17:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/#comment-91</guid>
		<description>That sounds entirely plausible. It&#039;s willfully perverse as a question. Still...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That sounds entirely plausible. It&#8217;s willfully perverse as a question. Still&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jeanne</title>
		<link>http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/comment-page-1/#comment-90</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 16:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nickharkaway.com/2008/12/dissimulations/#comment-90</guid>
		<description>Or would that just be such a peculiar thing to do that only a fiction writer could come up with it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or would that just be such a peculiar thing to do that only a fiction writer could come up with it?</p>
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